Hi guys,

After spending some time in Phoenix on a Grob 103,
I have started looking for my first glass glider. I
am currently looking at an ASW20A and a Standard Cirrus.
I know they are quite different. I guess my concerns
are the full flying tail on the Cirrus and the flaps
on the ASW. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Jeff

Jeff Runciman wrote:
> After spending some time in Phoenix on a Grob 103,
> I have started looking for my first glass glider. I
> am currently looking at an ASW20A and a Standard Cirrus.
> I know they are quite different. I guess my concerns
> are the full flying tail on the Cirrus and the flaps
> on the ASW. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I'll confine my comments to the ASW-20. I've flown four different ones
over the years. All handled beautifully in normal flight, but flying
slow in positive flap, two were perfectly benign, and the other two had
a tendency towards abrupt stall and spin entry with essentially no
warning. For whatever reason, there is some variation in stall/spin
characteristics from ship to ship. The good ones are suitable for
anyone with glass experience, the bad ones would be an unfortunate
choice for a low time pilot, given the limited amount of spin training
here in the US.

The other issue to note is that ASW-20s have a manual elevator hookup.
Some would argue that this is not an issue for the careful pilot, but
two of my otherwise careful friends managed to get careless with this
hookup, and are no longer with us.

If you want a 20, and can afford to pay a bit more, get a 20B or 20C, as
their spin characteristics are more predictable, and they have automatic
elevator hookups. There are other gliders in this price range worth
considering, including ASW-19, Std Jantar, DG-100/101, Std Libelle (if
you're small), Hornet, Mosquito, LS-1, LS-3, and LS-4.

Marc


Marc

At 20:42 10 March 2006, Marc Ramsey wrote:
There are other gliders in this price range worth
>considering, including ASW-19, Std Jantar, DG-100/101,
>Std Libelle (if
>you're small), Hornet, Mosquito, LS-1, LS-3, and LS-4.

Yes, really I advise you not to get hung up on one
or two types - there are many fantastic gliders out
there. The ASW-19 is a fantastic first glider, forgiving,
good for cross country - but dont forget the Pegase
- almost the same as the 19 but considered slightly
'better'.

The Libelle is a personal favourite with good performance,
looks and price. Club Libelle could be worth a look
too.

Not flown a PIK20 but heard they are not bad, got flaps
and cheap.

The LS-4 is reputed as a legend, and quite rightly
so. Still competitive in club class and great for x
country it is a good link glider between early hours
and more performance gliders. Down side being a bitty
more expensive.

I dont know if you have considered (obviously I dont
really know your budget) a Discus. It is easy to fly
and something that will take you a long way, and I
dont just mean kilometers.

Although never actually flown a DG200/202 I have heard
great things about them - good performance at ~45:1
and flaps it sounds as though a bit more experience
is needed, but when buying a first glider there is
no need to rush into it. DG gliders generally have
outstanding gel coats, even after many years of use.

I know I am edging on the more expensive gliders, but
why not 'share' the glider with a partner, and get
something a bit sporty like a Discus, ASW24 or DG300/303?
Finding a partner who flies, say, during the week means
you save half the rice you would have to pay and still
get to fly it pretty much when you want.

But just careful not to rush into things - be properly
trained in a flapped 2 seater before taking on an ASW20,
DG202 etc. A K6 can do great stuff - I know of someone
who did 750km in spain, and I am sure people have done
more.

Hope this helps broaden things out a bit! Hope you
find something good,

JR

Jono Richards wrote:

> I know I am edging on the more expensive gliders, but
> why not 'share' the glider with a partner, and get
> something a bit sporty like a Discus, ASW24 or DG300/303?
> Finding a partner who flies, say, during the week means
> you save half the rice you would have to pay and still
> get to fly it pretty much when you want.

That's a lot of rice!
My suggestion is to talk to the people in your area that fly these
ships. Lots more out there than 20s and Cirrii.

Shawn

Jeff Runciman wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> After spending some time in Phoenix on a Grob 103,
> I have started looking for my first glass glider. I
> am currently looking at an ASW20A and a Standard Cirrus.
> I know they are quite different. I guess my concerns
> are the full flying tail on the Cirrus and the flaps
> on the ASW. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> Jeff

I cannot comment on the flying characteristics of the Std. Cirrus. The
big concern is mounting the horizontal stabilizer. It can be fitted on
improperly with quite fatal results. I unfortunately witnessed a fatal
accident from this a couple years back. The NTSB was able to
replicate.

Please carefully read the NTSB report for a Std Cirrus in Hilltown, PA-
August 10, 2002.

Chip F.

Am I correct in presuming your choice of ASW20 vs Std
Cirrus rather than everything else is because these
or shares of, are available locally??
Yes, you could spend forever looking at the full spectrum
of gliders and you'll probably get a differing opinion
on each from everybody!
I'll just stick to giving my (purely personal) thoughts
on the above...

There's probably a scare story for every glider made,
so read about it and learn from other people's mistakes...ASW20
elevator works perfectly if you remember to connect
it, likewise Cirrus stabiliser if you fit it right!

I felt immediately at home on my first flight in the
ASW20. Cockpit is very roomy and controls fell easily
to hand without having to look at them. Controls felt
well harmonised though roll felt to me a little sluggish
with tips on.
Approach control is easy and short field landing with
the aid of full landing flap is unbelievable!
Only ever wire launched it, which it does well. BUT
it is extremely important to make sure that the flap
lever is fully engaged with the gate (and that is unworn),
as there have been serious accidents where the flaps
have slipped into full landing on the wire, causing
an immediate stall...I have heard of the same thing
happening on the airtow ground run, though with less
dramatic outcome.
Get a carbon sparred wing one - the others feel like
they come pre filled with water ballast, seriously!
As with all AS gliders of that era, they suffered from
short lifed gell coat and there's a lot of fiddly bit
to have refinished.
Can be good value for performance but I think they're
over handicapped for comp flying.

I again felt at home in the Std Cirrus on the very
first flight. I was a little apprehensive about the
all flying tail, but that was a non event - light yes
but not over sensitive.
Cockpit is huge and the panel is a little too far away
for the short-armed (like me) but a small price to
pay for really delightful handling. There's a good
reason for it being the #1 club class competiotion
choice.
Wings are reasonably light and fit easily with a single
pin.
Control connections can be fiddly until you are used
to them, but you can opt for an assembly access panel
now.
There are several different variations of stabiliser
fittings with the last few made having a 'normal' tailplane
and elevator.
All flying one CAN be fitted incorrectly but is easily
visually and physically checked and if you manage to
still miss it, will show up immediately if you do a
'positive' control check with a helper.
If you do go for one, make sure it has had the double
airbrake paddle mod. Original airbrakes were adequate
at best - the mod transforms it.
There is a really first class web site for Std Cirrus
owners.

www.standardcirrus.org

I have to admit to a degree of bias - having flown
around 50 different types of glider and motorglider
over the last 25 years, I own a Std Cirrus...

At 03:12 11 March 2006, Chipsoars wrote:
>
>Jeff Runciman wrote:
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> After spending some time in Phoenix on a Grob 103,
>> I have started looking for my first glass glider.
>>I
>> am currently looking at an ASW20A and a Standard Cirrus.
>> I know they are quite different. I guess my concerns
>> are the full flying tail on the Cirrus and the flaps
>> on the ASW. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>>
>> Jeff
>
>I cannot comment on the flying characteristics of the
>Std. Cirrus. The
>big concern is mounting the horizontal stabilizer.
> It can be fitted on
>improperly with quite fatal results. I unfortunately
>witnessed a fatal
>accident from this a couple years back. The NTSB was
>able to
>replicate.
>
>Please carefully read the NTSB report for a Std Cirrus
>in Hilltown, PA-
>August 10, 2002.
>
>Chip F.
>
>

To go one step further, building on what Marc has said, I would
encourage you to continue to obtain aerobatic/spin training while you
are shopping for a glider. You will be glad you did. The more
knowledge, and familiarity you have with being outside the straight and
level, the more comfortable you will be in whatever glider you
purchase. Some of those "devil spin ships" you'll read about won't seem
so devilish, when you know what your looking at.

I have watched friends sweat pounds off, messing with those manual
control hookups. I wouldn't have a ship with those antique hookups.
They're an accident waiting to happen.

I can't speak from experience, about any ship but the Standard Class
SZD55. It is our first glass ship, which we bought about four years
ago. Automatic hookups, 44/1, comfortable cockpit. It has been a great
utility ship, meaning we've just put it together and flown the heck out
of it. 180 hours the first year.
We checked my son, seventeen at the time, out in it. He had time in
1-26,Grob, Puchaz(spin/aerobatic), PW-5, and a flight in an LS8. He
checked out in January, and flew it at Hobbs, in July, at the 2002 15
Meter Nationals.

Despite what you might hear, the SZD55 is a great ship. It's water
ballast system is simple, the landing gear retract system is a simple
overcenter lock with no detents to screw up, and all has been trouble
free.

We looked at a lot of ships, starting from the junk to the beautiful
ships. We settled with the 55, because it only had 275 hours on it, and
it represented the low hours. It was like new, and four years ago, we
got a great purchase price on it.

Enjoy!

Snoop

Although not glamorous...looking over the trailer situation
might make a difference in what you select. Either
one of these gliders can be assembled solo with a rigger
and a good trailer. A crappy trailer that involves
standing on one's head while twisting vertebrate to
put the wings on generally will reduce the number of
friends one has at the airport.

One other item. Windpath Corporation is the SZD55 dealer, and we have
had great support from Jerzy and the folks at WindWindpath Corporation
]path, located outside of Toronto.

snoop

Rowan Griffin wrote:

> There's probably a scare story for every glider made,
> so read about it and learn from other people's mistakes...ASW20
> elevator works perfectly if you remember to connect
> it,
I urge you to consider a B or C models. I know many people - all
experienced pilots - that took off with the elevator not connected in an
ASW 20. It's just an ASW 20 problem, of course. I think it's a lot
easier to deal with a disconnected flap or aileron, and it seems these
are much less likely to be overlooked.

snip

> Only ever wire launched it, which it does well. BUT
> it is extremely important to make sure that the flap
> lever is fully engaged with the gate (and that is unworn),
> as there have been serious accidents where the flaps
> have slipped into full landing on the wire, causing
> an immediate stall...I have heard of the same thing
> happening on the airtow ground run, though with less
> dramatic outcome.

Do you mean the flaps slipped into a high speed position? It takes a
fair amount of force to pull the flaps into the landing position, but
they will slide easily forward into a negative flap position. This will
reduce the lift and cause the glider to descend, which might look like a
stall. Regardless, having the flap handle move itself to a new position
is a bad thing!

> Get a carbon sparred wing one - the others feel like
> they come pre filled with water ballast, seriously!

Frankly, most ASW 20 pilots consider the bendy wings a real asset and
part of their charm! It was one of the reasons it was so popular with
the ridge runners on the Alleghenies: those bendy wings give it a
smoother, more comfortable ride in turbulence. I certainly enjoyed the
smooth ride in my ASW 20C, and was a bit disappointed that the carbon
fiber wing of my ASH 26 E wasn't so forgiving. It's still bendy compared
to many gliders, but not like the ASW 20 and 20 C.

Regardless, I know the ASW 20 and 20 C did not have carbon fiber spars,
and I'm pretty sure the B didn't either. The B model did have much
heavier wings because of the extra fiberglass to needed carry the extra
water ballast it was rated for, but I think was mostly due to thicker
wing skins. Should you decide on an ASW 20 model, and you don't need the
extra wing loading, go for a C model.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Eric Greenwell wrote:

> I urge you to consider a B or C models. I know many people - all
> experienced pilots - that took off with the elevator not connected in an
> ASW 20. It's just an ASW 20 problem, of course.

This was supposed to be "It's NOT just an ASW 20 problem, of course".

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

At 22:06 10 March 2006, Shawn wrote:
>Jono Richards wrote:
>
>> I know I am edging on the more expensive gliders,
>>but
>> why not 'share' the glider with a partner, and get
>> something a bit sporty like a Discus, ASW24 or DG300/303?
>> Finding a partner who flies, say, during the week
>>means
>> you save half the rice you would have to pay and still
>> get to fly it pretty much when you want.
>
>That's a lot of rice!
>My suggestion is to talk to the people in your area
>that fly these
>ships. Lots more out there than 20s and Cirrii.
>
>Shawn

Hmm...looks like I got a dodgy 'P' key....
>

Jono Richards wrote:
> At 22:06 10 March 2006, Shawn wrote:
>
>>Jono Richards wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I know I am edging on the more expensive gliders,
>>>but
>>>why not 'share' the glider with a partner, and get
>>>something a bit sporty like a Discus, ASW24 or DG300/303?
>>>Finding a partner who flies, say, during the week
>>>means
>>>you save half the rice you would have to pay and still
>>>get to fly it pretty much when you want.
>>
>>That's a lot of rice!
>>My suggestion is to talk to the people in your area
>>that fly these
>>ships. Lots more out there than 20s and Cirrii.
>>
>>Shawn
>
>
> Hmm...looks like I got a dodgy 'P' key....

I figured, but still couldn't resist. :-)
Would indeed be a lot of rice!

Shawn

At 18:48 11 March 2006, Shawn wrote:
>Jono Richards wrote:
>> At 22:06 10 March 2006, Shawn wrote:
>>
>>>Jono Richards wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I know I am edging on the more expensive gliders,
>>>>but
>>>>why not 'share' the glider with a partner, and get
>>>>something a bit sporty like a Discus, ASW24 or DG300/303?
>>>>Finding a partner who flies, say, during the week
>>>>means
>>>>you save half the rice you would have to pay and still
>>>>get to fly it pretty much when you want.
>>>
>>>That's a lot of rice!
>>>My suggestion is to talk to the people in your area
>>>that fly these
>>>ships. Lots more out there than 20s and Cirrii.
>>>
>>>Shawn
>>
>>
>> Hmm...looks like I got a dodgy 'P' key....
>
>I figured, but still couldn't resist. :-)
>Would indeed be a lot of rice!
>
>Shawn
>

Oh yes... could use it to feed competitors on scrub
days

:-p

At 17:00 11 March 2006, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>Rowan Griffin wrote:
>
>> There's probably a scare story for every glider made,
>> so read about it and learn from other people's mistakes...ASW20
>> elevator works perfectly if you remember to connect
>> it,
>I urge you to consider a B or C models. I know many
>people - all
>experienced pilots - that took off with the elevator
>not connected in an
>ASW 20. It's just an ASW 20 problem, of course. I think
>it's a lot
>easier to deal with a disconnected flap or aileron,
>and it seems these
>are much less likely to be overlooked.
>
>snip
>
>> Only ever wire launched it, which it does well. BUT
>> it is extremely important to make sure that the flap
>> lever is fully engaged with the gate (and that is
>>unworn),
>> as there have been serious accidents where the flaps
>> have slipped into full landing on the wire, causing
>> an immediate stall...I have heard of the same thing
>> happening on the airtow ground run, though with less
>> dramatic outcome.
>
>Do you mean the flaps slipped into a high speed position?
>It takes a
>fair amount of force to pull the flaps into the landing
>position, but
>they will slide easily forward into a negative flap
>position. This will
>reduce the lift and cause the glider to descend, which
>might look like a
>stall. Regardless, having the flap handle move itself
>to a new position
>is a bad thing!

You have to be correct there - thinking about it, the
flap handle would want to fly forward. I didn't witness
the accident I was thinking of but the glider was observed
doing a snap roll on the wire and crashing inverted
- maybe the pilot reacted to the sudden loss of lift
by hauling the stick back?
>
>> Get a carbon sparred wing one - the others feel like
>> they come pre filled with water ballast, seriously!
>
>Frankly, most ASW 20 pilots consider the bendy wings
>a real asset and
>part of their charm! It was one of the reasons it was
>so popular with
>the ridge runners on the Alleghenies: those bendy wings
>give it a
>smoother, more comfortable ride in turbulence. I certainly
>enjoyed the
>smooth ride in my ASW 20C, and was a bit disappointed
>that the carbon
>fiber wing of my ASH 26 E wasn't so forgiving. It's
>still bendy compared
>to many gliders, but not like the ASW 20 and 20 C.
>
>Regardless, I know the ASW 20 and 20 C did not have
>carbon fiber spars,
>and I'm pretty sure the B didn't either. The B model
>did have much
>heavier wings because of the extra fiberglass to needed
>carry the extra
>water ballast it was rated for, but I think was mostly
>due to thicker
>wing skins. Should you decide on an ASW 20 model, and
>you don't need the
>extra wing loading, go for a C model.

I fully agree with you about the bendy wing, it was
the sheer weight of rigging I was referring to. The
one I flew had much heavier wings than another I helped
rig some years later and I was told it had a carbon
spar??
>
>--
>Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
>
>Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
>
>www.motorglider.org - Download 'A Guide to Self-launching
>Sailplane
>Operation'
>

Rowan Griffin wrote:
> At 17:00 11 March 2006, Eric Greenwell wrote:


>I didn't witness the accident I was thinking of but
>the glider was observed doing a snap roll on the wire
>and crashing inverted
> - maybe the pilot reacted to the sudden loss of lift
> by hauling the stick back?

What you have described is a stall /spin while during a winch launch.
Caused by too high an angle of attack -- for what ever reason.

Rowan Griffin wrote:

> I fully agree with you about the bendy wing, it was
> the sheer weight of rigging I was referring to. The
> one I flew had much heavier wings than another I helped
> rig some years later and I was told it had a carbon
> spar??

The C model, which I flew for 11 years, did not have a carbon spar. It's
wing was the same weight (and structurally the same) at the original ASW
20 (sometimes called the A model). The wing had a different airfoil,
blow-hole turbulators, mylar control gap fairings, and only a 40 degree
landing flap. Also, it had the automatic hookup elevator, a shock
absorbing gear design with a 500 x 5 wheel and a disk brake.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

"Jono Richards" > wrote in
message ...
> Although never actually flown a DG200/202 I have heard
> great things about them - good performance at ~45:1

Make that 41. 42 on 17m wings...

At 10:42 13 March 2006, Bert Willing wrote:
>
>'Jono Richards' wrote in
>message ...
>> Although never actually flown a DG200/202 I have heard
>> great things about them - good performance at ~45:1
>
>Make that 41. 42 on 17m wings...
>
>
>
Try this...

http://www.vectisglidingclub.co.uk/html/dg200_17.html

and look at the bit that says:

'L/D max. 42 106 kph / 57 kt / 66 mph
(45 126 kph/ 68 kt/ 78 mph)'

The brackets being 17m....

JR

I rather look at measurements than at manufacturer claims...

"Jono Richards" > wrote in
message ...
> At 10:42 13 March 2006, Bert Willing wrote:
>>
>>'Jono Richards' wrote in
>>message ...
>>> Although never actually flown a DG200/202 I have heard
>>> great things about them - good performance at ~45:1
>>
>>Make that 41. 42 on 17m wings...
>>
>>
>>
> Try this...
>
> http://www.vectisglidingclub.co.uk/html/dg200_17.html
>
> and look at the bit that says:
>
> 'L/D max. 42 106 kph / 57 kt / 66 mph
> (45 126 kph/ 68 kt/ 78 mph)'
>
> The brackets being 17m....
>
> JR
>
>
>
>
>

At 14:42 13 March 2006, Bert Willing wrote:
>I rather look at measurements than at manufacturer
>claims...
>
So do I, the purpose of the ~ [about] sign. However,
I think that DG are usually pretty good bout that stuff,
and 41.25 is too low for a 17m flapped glider

JR

At 14:42 13 March 2006, Bert Willing wrote:
>I rather look at measurements than at manufacturer
>claims...
>
So do I, the purpose of the ~ [about] sign. However,
I think that DG are usually pretty good bout that stuff,
and 41.25 is too low for a 17m flapped glider

JR

I didn't meant 41.25. The ASW20 has 41.3 in 15m, and 43 in 16.6m. It took
the Ventus to go to 17.6m to get 46, so 45 is a big claim for a DG200/17.
The ASW20 has an index of 110 with 15m, and so has the DG200 with 17m.

"Jono Richards" > wrote in
message ...
> At 14:42 13 March 2006, Bert Willing wrote:
>>I rather look at measurements than at manufacturer
>>claims...
>>
> So do I, the purpose of the ~ [about] sign. However,
> I think that DG are usually pretty good bout that stuff,
> and 41.25 is too low for a 17m flapped glider
>
> JR
>
>
>